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WDC OR IDSF- NO CONTEST

   
quicktime2
Joined on 31 ago 2007
Total posts: 66

WDC OR IDSF- NO CONTEST

domingo, 4 de maio de 2008 1:04

Dear kegs

 

You said something to the effect that if the WDC and IDSF cannot compromise and get together then they may as well split up and go their separate ways.

 

I think you can see this is already happening. And regardless of how both sides have behaved in the past, the reason there can be no compromise must be laid directly at the feet of the IDSF. They have made it very clear that the IDSF must be in charge of dancesport – including professional involvement – because of their position with respect to the IOC.  It is the IOC, and adherence to sporting principles they say, that makes it mandatory that IDSF be in charge.

 

But this is nonsense.  The problem with this argument is that the IOC itself is changing and it is not now an amateur undertaking. It's true that the administrative structure that was conceived when the Olympics were only for amateurs, is still in place. But changes in that direction are already occurring and professionals now have a definite place in the IOC. An International Federation for dancesport  consisting jointly of amateurs and professionals is not only possible but would be welcomed by the IOC who are anxious to have more professional involvement in all sports.

 

Most competitors understand the advantages that would accrue, if dancesport were an Olympic Medal Sport. But are there any advantages to being recognized as a sport by the IOC - as many activities are - if dancesport cannot attain Medal Sport status? That is the real question that needs answering. Dancesport is in that position now and it hasn't provided any benefits for competitors.  Yes, the IDSF presidium members have joined many committees and keep pretending they are a medal sport. But that is all shim sham

 

The fact is, dancesport will never be an Olympic medal sport. The spin the IDSF has put on this topic goes beyond belief. The other day there was a news item where the President of the IDSF Philippine Dance Sport Council commented on earning "that long-awaited Olympic slot, possibly in the 2012 London Olympic games"!!

 

People pushing the IDSF should get better informed. But next year it will become obvious to everyone that dancesport has been rejected. Again!  And with a limit to the total number of sports in the Olympics; and with the list of the sports considered for medal sports established – and the ranking of dancesport made clear - even IDSF will have to concede that they can't fool all the people all the time. Although they have done very well up to now.

 

So the very reason for IDSF insisting only they can be in charge of dancesport because they are a sport in the Olympic games, will be shown to be complete rubbish. Which is was from the start.

 

Being in the Olympics means being recognized as a medal sport. Anything else means very little. Ask the other sports which are recognized by the IOC and are exactly in the same category as dancesport– Bandy, Boules, Life saving, Tug-of-War etc. etc. This is where the IDSF is today and where it will remain.

 

When IDSF competitors understand the highest level they can achieve are the IDSF competitions in effect today – and not the beloved Olympics as the IDSF has claimed all these years -  will they not find that the WDC comps Blackpool, Assen, Asian comps etc are really much more attractive? And more significant?  Is it any advantage to be placed in the same category as Tug-of-War? Perhaps classification as an artistic pursuit will look good in comparison.

 

Because of IDSF intransigence, both organizations have changed and can go their separate ways. The WDC now has its amateur league and the top professionals. The WDC worked with amateurs very well in the past and developed dancesport as well as establishing all the great competitions. And all the great champions. They can do it again. In fact they are doing it again.

 

The future? WDC need only stay the course. Without the promise of the Olympics what has the IDSF to offer competitors? An organization made up of competitors who couldn’t make it on the dance floor but nevertheless still want to be on top; plus some lawyers, accountants etc who saw self-interest opportunities if they were involved in an Olympic Sport.  I don't think it will be a hard choice to make.

 

 

 

 

 

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luv2dance
Joined on 29 ago 2007
Total posts: 8

Re: WDC OR IDSF- NO CONTEST

domingo, 4 de maio de 2008 8:30

Dear Quicktime

Thank you for your what you have written. It has given me a lot to think about. Have we been misled all along? Looking at it this way explains a lot of things that are going on.

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dancingrl
Joined on 08 mar 2008
Total posts: 4

Re: WDC OR IDSF- NO CONTEST

domingo, 4 de maio de 2008 9:08

I agree but we can't do much about it. I guess we will just have to wait.

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onyourtoes
Joined on 12 fev 2007
Total posts: 36

Re: WDC OR IDSF- NO CONTEST

quinta-feira, 8 de maio de 2008 7:08

quicktime2. I am in agreement with so much of what you have written.

I think that so long as a group is prepared to stomp up the money the IOC are quite happy to recognise them as a sport - without the slightest intention of allowing them to compete in the Olympic games - There may be some "tit bits" thrown to dancers to delude them to believe there is a serious intent. .

It is also sad to me that some are prepared to tear our danceworld apart simply over a word "SPORT". Does it truly matter what it is called "dance" or "dancesport" so long as there is unity? The reality is that some who claim to be seeking harmony and peace refuse to make any move from the "SPORT" stance and happily victimise those who do not capitulate to them. These "Sports" people believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. Until there is a change in this attitude there can be no progress to peace.

The reality is that the IOC must shoulder much of the responsibility for the turmoil in the dance world today. They were kept totally involved with the situation which was developing. Prominent former Olympic champions made representations. Mr Freitag tells us that the IOC gave their full support to the IDSF giving birth to the IPDSC thereby creating a splinter group dividing dancers and against the wishes of the majority of professional competitors. Is that responsible behaviour by the IOC?

IOC could easily have informed IDSF we are suspending "dancesport" until you return as one united body representing all sides. The IOC failed dance or dancesport completely..By what authority never mind logic did the IOC encourage the formation of a second body when it is constantly stated they only recognised one and I believe there rules limit only one?

It is also sad that there are those who refuse to face the facts which exist today.
They stubborly reject the fact that IDSF refused to hold any further talks with the WDC and became even more entrenched in their warfare when they gave birth to the IPDSC.
 
 
Some believe "we" should be making "suggestion" to solve the problem!!
That those of us who can see what is happening and criticise attempts to divide our dance world and hand total control to IDSF are "bullies".
This completely flies in the face of reality. Mr Vince Bain the then 1st Vice President of the IDSF and their POLICY DIRECTOR came up with very serious and sobering thoughts - he drew attention to factual suggestion and made very practical proposals to try and resolve the issues in a peaceful and harmonious manner.
If there was one man who knew all about previous discussion then it was Mr Bain as he had attended the vast majority of meetings taking place between IDSF and WDC. He could see light and hope but he was rejected. His suggestions thrown out and him along with them since they did not suit the IDSF hierarchy..
Truthfully if the suggestions of the Policy Director and 1st Vice President are rejected what chance of dancesportinfo forum members being able to make suggestions that  will be acted upon?. 
 
The IDSF were aware that the vast majority of dancers - the members of their member associations - were totally opposed to the formation of the IPDSC but that counted for nothing. The opinions of the dancers is irrelevant. That is sad.
 
I would make one serious suggestions.  The IDSF show some respect for those they call "IDSF athletes".  An Open Market Policy be introduced so dance competitors can dance/train where they choose and Adjudicators can work where they choose. Being a realist I know I am whistling in the wind but this could be a first step. At least the dancers would no longer be the weapons for the IDSF army.   
 
It is sad Quicktime2 when I read that you and I and people like us who want a fairer better united danceworld world are to blame.
We take the trouble and time to source all the issues and learn what is happening then we are the "venomous" ones wanting division! With this attitude by some IDSF supporters truth has no chance. 
 
Even sadder is  when a Professionals says I support IDSF no matter what they do and to whom they refuse to talk so you can trust me and mistrust my colleagues BUT an Amateur says I prefer what the WDC offer me then they must be a secret professional with victorian ideas and the desire to split the dance world.
 
Even the IPDSC Professionals did not want to join the IDSF so a seperate little empire was established for these sad souls. In an interview Mr Freitag admitted that for these professional joining IDSF was a step too far.
 
When one considers that it is the WDC members members who
1. run the vast majority of dance schools/studios/clubs
2. introduce general public first to the pleasure and benefits of dance and then on to an interest in competitive dance
3 Train and develop these dancers (even athletes if that is the only term some will accept)  increasing their knowledge and ability
4 develop and mentor competitors to the point where by natural evolution they feel the desire for whatever reason to become professional 
5.  Further develop those professionals so that they become more qualified and knowledgable and show even greater skill and ability to pass on to the next generation.
6. Who through their klnowledge and ability expand and explore the boundaries continually aiding the development of dance or dancesport..  There will be no stagnation whilst there are those with genuine knowledge and ability..
 
 
You are absolutely right there is NO CONTEST.
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quicktime2
Joined on 31 ago 2007
Total posts: 66

Re: WDC OR IDSF- NO CONTEST

sexta-feira, 9 de maio de 2008 18:51

To onyour toes

 

Your comment "More and more I personally am convinced that the solution lies in the hand (or feet) and the hearts and minds of the dancers." I agree with you completely.

 

Consider this. When we have a general election there are generally two (or more) parties who want to be in charge. All the people vote on whom they prefer and there is a process to determine the winner. We like to call this democracy. Both sides have an opportunity to present their case.

 

Dancers want to have competitions. The WDC and IDSF both say they can provide this better than the other. But the details on exactly how this would be done are often not provided. Therefore it is often not clear to the competitor what is the best choice for them. In addition there is no procedure in place that allows both sides to present their case and for choices to be made.

 

On top of that. Regardless of what they may say, it is not black or white. There are many options involving both WDC and IDSF. These options have not been articulated to the dance community.

 

To my mind the challenge now is to make sure competitors are aware of all options and then to provide them an opportunity to choose.

 

 

 

 

 

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sambatogo
Joined on 29 ago 2007
Total posts: 74

Re: WDC OR IDSF- NO CONTEST

sexta-feira, 9 de maio de 2008 20:44

Onyourtoes,

You are so right on all of your points. Particularly on your reference to Vince Bain and his very revealing letter to the IDSFin another thread. If he as former policy director thinks they are wrong, what`s wrong with the rest of them and the other Pro`s that supportt such actions of the IDSF? It just does not make sence. We suspect that many Pro`s just feel the IDSF is just too big, and that they cannot be faught against. So evil can just be allowed to prosper. A great shame that so many think that way. The only consolation is that many of the worlds top dancers rightly support the WDC. And that their leading light will guide the way forward from the missguided ways of IDSF Olympic failure, that is not really relevant anyway.

Sambato go. 

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onyourtoes
Joined on 12 fev 2007
Total posts: 36

Re: WDC OR IDSF- NO CONTEST

segunda-feira, 12 de maio de 2008 8:32

@quicktime2.  It is strange you mention politics in general as that thought was paramount in my mind.  No one political party provides every policy which one can support. So the wise read and try to establish what is going on and then decide to support te one that most provides the type of world they would like to see.
 
I have heard so many Americans complaining about Bush and then when challenged admit they did not themselvs go out and vote.  The consequence of doing nothing.
Anyone ever wonder how much different the world might be if it was AL Gore who became President in 2000?
 
Similarly although it seems to offend some I cannot ignore history.  The world is shaped by past actions. It is no different for the dance world.  The actions of some 1.2 even 10 years and more ago have created the danceworld which we have today.
 
@Sambatogo.   Ssssshhhhhhhh!!  Mr Bains words are "history" and some believe should now be forgotten.
 
The following is a repeat of the post I made in the : WDC Am League World Championship topic but really belong  here.
 
 
 
 
@Keggs. 
 You asked why the WDC could not call off their event as a gesture of goodwill.
I know and you should know that it would not be accepted as such.  It would be "spun" into retreat, it would  defined as a defeat for the WDC a lack of support amongst competitors and adjudicators.  It would be claimed that WDC had failed all those who signed the danceinternationaaL declaration and registered for the Amateur League.  It would be claimed WDC were turning their back on those Amateurs who had been ex-communicated by IDSF.
A real gesture of goodwill would be for the IDSF to agree to dancers competing in an Open Market atmosphere and for an Amnesty for those who had "upset" the IDSF previously. 
Many people are only too well aware of the competitions long establioshed and new which the IDSF destroyed or attempted to destroy.
 
 
Can I add here I most certainly do not want you to make any derogatory statement at all.  You are able to make your own decisions, express them. stand by them. I
 
@Think of Me. 
 I think if there is confusion it is with you.  Instead of finding the conversation "entertaining" it would be better to seek your own answers.  Iif you have not already decided where your  loyalties will go then sooner or later you will.  Think about it.
 
@aspirin. 
 If by dancers you mean amateur competitors then is it not a bad reflection on IDSF and the policies that they have created a fragmented will?  Have they done this deliberately so the dancers feel they cannot achieve their own wishes?
 
@ Elaine- 
From some of my earlier words you will know I share your sentiments.  I am not sure that a world wide movement is necessary. In each country the dancers meet at comps etc and they can surely reach a majority agreement and take this up with their Organisation leaders and if that fails take action.  The Danish Latin Couples did this and it went on to assist the standard dancers also.
For NOT competing dancers have been threatened before.  Some times it has been individual couples threatened by important figures. Sometimes it has been national associations requiring there couples to compete at a certain event.  As with the World Games it has been National Members threatened if they did not send a representative - if they had possible semi finalists.
 
@sunshine2.
I do not know if you meant it but I found your words rather mocking and scornful of Elaine's view.
However you are presupposing that the wheelchair and others wished to remain part of IDSF when the huge part of their membership  had been suspended/banned or .defected.  They might feel rather isolated and out in the cold.  You also overlook the huge loss of income for the IDSF.  No more cash coming in for all those IDSF Opens, Grand Slams and dozens of "Championships"
Adjudicators might return licences when there are so very few competitions to adjudicate. 
Sometimes one wonders do the iDSF only involve the wheelchair and other dancers because it increases their power. Certainly they are given few opportunities to display their wonderful art..
 
General Comment I am sure that the IDSF pray every night that the thinking of some members of the forum will continue.
It suits then for Dancers to think and proclaim they are powerless and therefore it is useless to take any action. 
It suits them for Dancers to believe they are Prisoners of War.
It suits them for Dancers to believe that the IDSF have great ideas and are doing something.
It suits them that Dancers simply take the bait and believe something is happening because IDSF talk a good talk. without any following action.
 
 
With apologies to all I am going to also place this in the WDC vs IDSF thread which is where it belongs in general.  I also want to add a few further thoughts. 
 
   
 
. 
@Keggs. 
 You asked why the WDC could not call off their event as a gesture of goodwill.
I know and you should know that it would not be accepted as such.  It would be "spun" into retreat, it would  defined as a defeat for the WDC a lack of support amongst competitors and adjudicators.  It would be claimed that WDC had failed all those who signed the danceinternationaaL declaration and registered for the Amateur League.  It would be claimed WDC were turning their back on those Amateurs who had been ex-communicated by IDSF.
A real gesture of goodwill would be for the IDSF to agree to dancers competing in an Open Market atmosphere and for an Amnesty for those who had "upset" the IDSF previously. 
Many people are only too well aware of the competitions long establioshed and new which the IDSF destroyed or attempted to destroy.
 
 
Can I add here I most certainly do not want you to make any derogatory statement at all.  You are able to make your own decisions, express them. stand by them. I
 
@Think of Me. 
 I think if there is confusion it is with you.  Instead of finding the conversation "entertaining" it would be better to seek your own answers.  Iif you have not already decided where your  loyalties will go then sooner or later you will.  Think about it.
 
@aspirin. 
 If by dancers you mean amateur competitors then is it not a bad reflection on IDSF and the policies that they have created a fragmented will?  Have they done this deliberately so the dancers feel they cannot achieve their own wishes?
 
@ Elaine- 
From some of my earlier words you will know I share your sentiments.  I am not sure that a world wide movement is necessary. In each country the dancers meet at comps etc and they can surely reach a majority agreement and take this up with their Organisation leaders and if that fails take action.  The Danish Latin Couples did this and it went on to assist the standard dancers also.
For NOT competing dancers have been threatened before.  Some times it has been individual couples threatened by important figures. Sometimes it has been national associations requiring there couples to compete at a certain event.  As with the World Games it has been National Members threatened if they did not send a representative - if they had possible semi finalists.
 
@sunshine2.
I do not know if you meant it but I found your words rather mocking and scornful of Elaine's view.
However you are presupposing that the wheelchair and others wished to remain part of IDSF when the huge part of their membership had defected.  They might feel rather isolated and out in the cold.  You also overlook the huge loss of income for the IDSF.  No more cash coming in for all those IDSF Opens, Grand Slams and dozens of "Championships"
Adjudicators might return licences when there are so very few competitions to adjudicate. 
 
General Comment I am sure that the IDSF pray every night that the thinking of some members of the forum will continue.
It suits then for Dancers to think and proclaim they are powerless and therefore it is useless to take any action. 
It suits them for Dancers to believe they are Prisoners of War.
It suits them for Dancers to believe that the IDSF have great ideas and are doing something.
It suits them that Dancers simply take the bait and believe something is happening because IDSF talk a good talk. without any following action.
 
 
With apologies to all I am going to also place this in the WDC vs IDSF thread which is where it belongs in general.  I also want to add a few further thoughts. 
 
   
 
. 
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